New terms of use feedback

Darragh

Folks, typing this on a mobile so forgive formatting.

Several photographers have already expressed concern at the new TOU in relation to Boards.ie using the images without permission.

We have never done this and always done this so the TOU changes nothing. I promise you this.

This term is there to allow us to display your work on mobile sites, on different platforms etc, same as always. It's a technical thing first and foremost.

You retain "ownership" in the sense that you always have. We're not going to publish your photos in a book, use them in ads or anything. We will always ask you if we can use them.

I'll come back tomorrow with a fuller explanation, but if you take anything from this, it's that nothing has changed.

Thanks

Darragh

Fajitas!

We have never done this and always done this so the TOU changes nothing. I promise you this.

This term is there to allow us to display your work on mobile sites, on different platforms etc, same as always. It's a technical thing first and foremost.

You retain "ownership" in the sense that you always have. We're not going to publish your photos in a book, use them in ads or anything. We will always ask you if we can use them.

Good stuff, I've probably come across rather strong in the feedback thread, but tbh, it's going to be something you were/are going to come up with.

ThOnda

It is more than understandable that offering and providing such brilliant service as the Boards.ie is you need to cover yourselves in legal terms. Just the formulation could be a bit better

Till then, no pictures from me

Darragh

Well look, if you can suggest terms wecan incorporate, I'll bring them to the solicitor.

Get us to state "we will not ..." whatever that you want to see there and we'll include it if we can.

ThOnda

I am neither lawyer nor English speaker, but could there be something describing that:
"By posting a picture you are giving the Boards.ie the right to display the picture on devices that are used for displaying contents of Internet pages such as Boards.ie. The full copyright stays with the original poster."

Please, translate it to English and/or legal terms on your own

Darragh

Nice one

Fajitas!

To add to Thonda's post;

"The image will not be edited, modified, reproduced or distributed without your permission."

Again, IANAL, and is something worth running through with one

Kanye

Sorry, but I'm finding this goes against the grain a bit. The TOU is unequivocal in what it says. Saying that it doesn't change anything is not a true reflection of the status of the TOU. You may (for now) have a policy that you won't use it against the users, but the reality is that it's phrased in that way for a reason.

Anyone who has any doubts about the implications of the TOU - especially where it has potential to affect their professional lives - should seek independent legal advice before continuing to post their work here.

masteroftherealm

Darragh wrote: »

Folks, typing this on a mobile so forgive formatting.

Several photographers have already expressed concern at the new TOU in relation to Boards.ie using the images without permission.

We have never done this and always done this so the TOU changes nothing. I promise you this.

This term is there to allow us to display your work on mobile sites, on different platforms etc, same as always. It's a technical thing first and foremost.

You retain "ownership" in the sense that you always have. We're not going to publish your photos in a book, use them in ads or anything. We will always ask you if we can use them.

I'll come back tomorrow with a fuller explanation, but if you take anything from this, it's that nothing has changed.

Thanks

Darragh

Ok, I get where your coming from Darragh, but having this assurance in a post is not enough.
There needs to be a statement that if Boards.ie Ltd is going to use users media outside of the realm of reproducing content within the forum of the Boards.ie website, written permission must be sought from the copyright holder in question.

masteroftherealm

Fajitas! wrote: »

To add to Thonda's post;

"The image will not be edited, modified, reproduced or distributed without your permission."

Again, IANAL, and is something worth running through with one

I would expand this to written permission otherwise implicit permission can be argued for.

Paulw

I think section 7.1 is the biggest concern -

By making a submission to us, you grant a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, sublicenseable, fully paid up and royalty free right to us to copy, prepare derivative works from, improve, distribute, publish, remove, retain, add, and use and commercialise, in any way now known or in the future discovered, anything that you submit to us, without any further consent, notice and/or compensation to you or to any third parties.

Especially, the right that boards.ie would have to "use and commercialise" your work, "without any further consent, notice and/or compensation".

I certainly won't be posting any more photos on boards.ie until those words are changed.

Also, I assume that these T&Cs aren't retrospective to previously posted content??

masteroftherealm

Yes the above section is ahuge no no. That MUST be removed for there to be a photography and writing and any other user generated content forum.

soccerc

I've taken the new TOU to a legal friend and until such time as 7.1 is removed will not be posting images as per his advice.

No amount of posts from Boards.ie reps saying it's not their intention etc the legal position as advised is that Boards can do whatever they want with posted images without the need for any further permission of the copyright holder.

@PaulW - Advise is that it is not retrospective but he wants to see original TOU that I agreed to upon signing up to be certain.

DaireQuinlan

but that just counts for 'submissions' right ? What they mean by this (in the normal parlance of these TOUs) is actual suggestions you make with regard to the operation of boards itself, or (in this case) images that you submit to boards administration for whatever reason. This is distinct to material you post as part of a discussion thread. OTOH, IANAL ...

Paulw

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

but that just counts for 'submissions' right ? What they mean by this (in the normal parlance of these TOUs) is actual suggestions you make with regard to the operation of boards itself, or (in this case) images that you submit to boards administration for whatever reason. This is distinct to material you post as part of a discussion thread. OTOH, IANAL ...

No, I think you're wrong there.

A submission is anything posted on boards.ie, hence the "submit reply" button when you reply to a thread posting.

DaireQuinlan

Paulw wrote: »

No, I think you're wrong there.

A submission is anything posted on boards.ie, hence the "submit reply" button when you reply to a thread posting.

I think you're mistaken, i think the word 'submission' is used in a very specific sense, to describe what I talk about above. It's boiler plate text, and probably is in the existing T&C (if there is one). It doesn't apply to us at all, only the other clause about usage. Anyhow, I'm sure this will be clarified at some point.

democrates

7: The content you post on Boards.ie
...
By posting any Material on or through Boards.ie, you grant us a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Materials in connection with Boards.ie or the promotion thereof.
The license you grant to us is non-exclusive, royalty free and fully paid, sub licensable, and worldwide.

I can understand peoples reservations, IANAL but according to the American Society of Media Photographers that "sub licensable" group of terms mean boards can sell on user content without paying the author/photographer/programmer.

It's limited "in connection with Boards.ie or the promotion thereof" but if a stock photo site buys one share in boards.ie and/or visa versa does that constitute a connection? Maybe this could be tightened up to "solely for the purpose of providing the Boards.ie discussion boards service".

I think you could live without the promotion term, reading out a post on the radio the odd time (the users post now propagated to a radio stations audio recordings collection) is surely outweighed by the desire of users to have this accumulation of their content protected from future risk. I can't think of one circumstance where user content is necessary for successful promotion, I understand how it's convenient, but no more than that imho.

If boards were bought out in the future, new owners could take a mercenary approach and this part of the TOC seems so vague it may leave users exposed. Though revisions of legal docs are good practice in corporate governance, conspiracy senses will be tingling with this change being implemented on Christmas week instead of waiting to include revisions addressing concerns in the new year...

I find it hard to imagine that boards.ie is out to pull a fast one, it wouldn't chime with the spirit in which boards.ie has operated in the past, and which is laudable. Besides, maybe a controversial TOC would be a poison pill for a buyer who'd be under suspicion by default rather than an advantage, which goes against the sell out theory.

Anyway I've got presents to wrap now and drinks to quaff, Happy Christmas to all in and on boards.ie!

tororosso

Paulw wrote: »

I think section 7.1 is the biggest concern -

By making a submission to us, you grant a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, sublicenseable, fully paid up and royalty free right to us to copy, prepare derivative works from, improve, distribute, publish, remove, retain, add, and use and commercialise, in any way now known or in the future discovered, anything that you submit to us, without any further consent, notice and/or compensation to you or to any third parties.

Especially, the right that boards.ie would have to "use and commercialise" your work, "without any further consent, notice and/or compensation".

I certainly won't be posting any more photos on boards.ie until those words are changed.


Also, I assume that these T&Cs aren't retrospective to previously posted content??

Geez, that really does speak for itself :mad: I have never posted a photo up on the site but have been toying with the idea of putting up the odd one for critique etc. Half the fun will be taken out of this forum if photographers stop submitting (and they will stop after having read the post that Paul W just referred to) to the threads...I think this needs to be cleared up promptly or else there will be a sudden image drain.....:(

ozt9vdujny3srf

Pix.ie TOU wrote:

We do not claim ownership of photos that you choose to Post to Pixie. Pixie neither has nor wants any ownership of your photos. However, by posting or making photos available through Pixie, you hereby grant:

to the Company, a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable licence to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display photos and/or graphics you Post on Pixie, solely for the purpose of providing the Pixie service.

to the Company, a perpetual, irrevocable and fully sub-licensable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display Content other than photos and graphics (in whole or in part) and to incorporate such Content into other works in any format or medium now known or later developed.

.

masteroftherealm

Yeah that would pretty much work for me, Ill pass it by my lawyer still if its worded like that but Id be happy with that.

Covey

Among the updated terms is this:

"By making a submission to us, you grant a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, sublicenseable, fully paid up and royalty free right to us to copy, prepare derivative works from, improve, distribute, publish, remove, retain, add, and use and commercialise, in any way now known or in the future discovered, anything that you submit to us, without any further consent, notice and/or compensation to you or to any third parties."

I know a lot of discussion has taken place with regard to similar terms in Photography competitions and the like.

Anyone find this offputting regarding the photography forum?

PCPhoto

just like all these sites ...another term and condition which when noticed means think twice before posting up a pic.

I wont be posting any pics - but then again - I'm a lurker ..... prefer reading and making the occasional comment.

Paulw

I also won't be posting any picts, but will continue discussions and comments.

Covey

Forgot to say I also won't be posting any more pics but will join in in discussions like the above.

ThOnda

I am busy with my work, so those few minutes spent here won't include posting a picture. And yes, this forum takes me only few minutes a day due to many reasons. Why? It might be something that I cannot cope with accepting honest opinions. And the opposite.

pullandbang

People not posting pics will destroy the photography forum. I hope the powers that be will see sense and change the T&C.

smelltheglove

I don't think I will be posting any pics until there is a change in this.

It is unfortunate as there will be less enjoyment for us, maybe we will revet to posting flickr/pix links but wont be the same.

When did this take effect?

Valentia

My understanding is that these are not active yet. Will read through the "Feedback" forum tomorrow but if they remain as stated above it will rightly shanghai this place!

Covey

It says Revised: 23/12/2009.

m_stan

Why not just post a link to your personal website / flickr etc? Surely a link can't be claimed under these t's&c's?

Crispin

Thanks Covey for pointing this out. Totally ruins the photo forum for me. Really disappointed. I will not be posting any more pictures and I will miss the opportunity to see some very talented photographer's work on this forum. Can we put together some sort of formal response from the forum members in an attempt to overturn this change in the conditions?????

RoryW

Boards will be boarded up by this

Future postings will consist of

Covey

m_stan wrote: »

Why not just post a link to your personal website / flickr etc? Surely a link can't be claimed under these t's&c's?

I don't really know?

In any event a photography forum with no photographs will be like the catholic church and no bishops

AnCatDubh

Crispin wrote: »

Thanks Covey for pointing this out. Totally ruins the photo forum for me. Really disappointed. I will not be posting any more pictures and I will miss the opportunity to see some very talented photographer's work on this forum. Can we put together some sort of formal response from the forum members in an attempt to overturn this change in the conditions?????

For reference, the original thread discussing this is over here.

The discussion on the original thread was left with an invitation by Darragh for boards users to propose suitable and appropriate terms and conditions that people would find acceptable and an undertaking that such suggestions would be brought to the legal speaking people. A number of posters have done so and the thread is still open for more. Perhaps people could post helpful suggestions over on that thread.

If all else fails (which I doubt) there are other options too - there is a boards (in name) flickr group which is bound by the flickr T&C http://www.flickr.com/groups/boards_ie/ if people find that more agreeable.

As to the OP, yes ultimately it would effect what graphical content I would choose to contribute as I think it would do for most users.

Calina

I don't believe I got a response but I did point out that the vast majority of photographs posted to boards.ie/photography were not served from boards.ie servers but from pixie and flickr (amongst others).

I'm not sure what bearing this would have on the T&Cs here.

Valentia

m_stan wrote: »

Why not just post a link to your personal website / flickr etc? Surely a link can't be claimed under these t's&c's?

Now I'd say Solomon might spend a little time on that one.

Fajitas!

I haven't put any of my pics onto Boards.ie since it came into place, and have no intention of doing so - At most, I'll link to one of my sites. I know of several other people who frequent Boards that are going to do the same.

I'm glad that Darragh has said they won't use them in any malicious way, but tbh, I'd prefer more comfortable wording.

My understanding is that these are not active yet. Will read through the "Feedback" forum tomorrow but if they remain as stated above it will rightly shanghai this place!

They are indeed in effect, afaik, they were in effect since we got the notes to say it was online.

Valentia

Darragh wrote: »

Hi folks

We are updating our Terms of Use and our site Privacy Policy. These will go live soon.

We've put both pages up for your review:

Terms of Use.

Privacy Policy.

This is the first revision of both documents and are an important step for us. We welcome all questions, though if there is something you disagree with, please do let us know below with your reason.
Darragh

Haven't seen any update on this situation and I read that as not being in place yet?

GavinZac

If I post an image, all I'm submitting is a link (albeit rendered in my browser as an image object with its source data from Flickr). It makes no difference to the Boards T&C if I link to my own image or to someone elses, the copyright and other rights belong to me or the other original owner; the same way that a journalist quoting Shakespeare in the Sun does not transfer copyright of Hamlet to the rag.

Sure, Boards are free to claim, edit, profit from or whatever the sequence of letters that make up that link -

Covey

Fajitas! wrote: »

I haven't put any of my pics onto Boards.ie since it came into place, and have no intention of doing so - At most, I'll link to one of my sites. I know of several other people who frequent Boards that are going to do the same.

I'm glad that Darragh has said they won't use them in any malicious way, but tbh, I'd prefer more comfortable wording.


They are indeed in effect, afaik, they were in effect since we got the notes to say it was online.

I may be wrong in this, but if your photo "appears" on boards via "insert image" those T&C's may well apply.

Fajitas!

Covey wrote: »

I may be wrong in this, but if your photo "appears" on boards via "insert image" those T&C's may well apply.

Oh, I know, I mean by using...

www.myamazinglygoodphotographicwebsite.com/fantasticlandscapes/treeincarlowgallery.html

New photos in there!

GavinZac

Hence:



Boards.ie do not now own the rights to use the Flickr Logo for profit. They do, however, own the rights to the text I input to make it appear here.

Valentia

Covey wrote: »

It says Revised: 23/12/2009.

Oops. Missed that little lad ;-( Now that has changed my mood!!!

.Longshanks.

Would only posting tiny thumnail images that link back to bigger versions on flickr / pix.ie keep both sides happy?
Not really the best solution but workable for the time being?

PCPhoto

Covey wrote: »

Among the updated terms is this:

"By making a submission to us, you grant a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, sublicenseable, fully paid up and royalty free right to us to copy, prepare derivative works from, improve, distribute, publish, remove, retain, add, and use and commercialise, in any way now known or in the future discovered, anything that you submit to us, without any further consent, notice and/or compensation to you or to any third parties."

I know a lot of discussion has taken place with regard to similar terms in Photography competitions and the like.

Anyone find this offputting regarding the photography forum?

just wondering ..... if you take a pic from another person and post it on boards without their permission ....will Boards.ie also accept the liability associated with any legal actions ?

Covey

Longshanks100 wrote: »

Would only posting tiny thumnail images that link back to bigger versions on flickr / pix.ie keep both sides happy?
Not really the best solution but workable for the time being?

Really Boards need to decide whether they want a photography forum or not.

PCPhoto

Longshanks100 wrote: »

Would only posting tiny thumnail images that link back to bigger versions on flickr / pix.ie keep both sides happy?
Not really the best solution but workable for the time being?

the terms indicate that posting a pic gives boards.ie rights to the image (ie. the original image)

simple solution .... dont post a pic.

Covey

PCPhoto wrote: »

just wondering ..... if you take a pic from another person and post it on boards without their permission ....will Boards.ie also accept the liability associated with any legal actions ?

"You are responsible for making sure that you have all rights to what you post, including the rights necessary for you to grant the foregoing licenses to same."

You'd be in bother I'd say "

Fajitas!

Covey wrote: »

Really Boards need to decide whether they want a photography forum or not.

At the same time, a photography forum without images could prove quite an interesting concept.

PCPhoto

Covey wrote: »

"You are responsible for making sure that you have all rights to what you post, including the rights necessary for you to grant the foregoing licenses to same."

You'd be in bother I'd say "

talk about wanting their cake and eating it !!!

they want the rights to any pics that we post ....but if something is illegal - its the original poster's problem.

Funk that !!

stunt_penguin

Uh, guys, there is no uploading of images to the boards.ie server so we are not submitting images to their server, only links to the images.

Whenever you post a link to one of your pics here then they own the right to publish and archive the link, not the photograph.

tl;dr : calm down